A friend who was in Tel-Aviv on the evening of that demonstration told me in shul today that it was sponsored by the anti-Zionist far left and had very little support among the public at large.
I've noticed a pattern that the public-at-large seems to support war at the beginning but turns against it when it starts dragging and fails to achieve its objectives. Although there will always be a small anti-war contingent which opposes war on political/ideological/pacifist/humanitarian grounds, regardless of how successful it is.
BTW, did you say that your shul was in Park Slope?
I don't know if it was Reform or Orthodox because I was not at the main service, but a different one in the basement. My friend Avi took me, about 3 years ago. I don't remember the name of it, but I recall it was on Garfield Place a block or two from Prospect Park. And it had a dome on the top. If that helps.
That would be Alt Shul (http://altshul.org/), which borrows space in either the basement or the rabbi's study at the Reform congregation but is way more traditional than most Reform or even Conservative congregations. Shoshana davens with them every other Shabbat. They're a friendly group of 20somethings and 30somethings (the average age is 32) who are very into ritual.
Yea, I think that's the group I visited. I remember they were quite friendly after the service but I confess that I did not feel at home with their service. My friend Avi liked it though. (Avi used to live in Park Slope.)
yeah see this is why when I was there and Israelis asked me my opinions on Israeli politics them getting an answer out of me was like pulling teeth. I said I dont have a right to an opinion because I dont live there and I dont have to deal with the consequences of the policies I advocate.
I mean these guys definitely have a valid point. there's a shit ton of money being spent fighting with the palestinians that would certain be better spent developing southern towns and the negev region in general.
Still I dont think its right to blame the Israeli government entirely for that because the stinkers in gaza are doing their best to make the status quo untenable for the Israelis. I also dont think its entirely fair to say the majority of Israelis support the actions in gaza. Its more like they grudgingly aquiesce to its necessity. still I would never say things like that to their faces.
I dont agree with those american jews who think they have as much right to say what should happen in Israel as Israelis do. I dont think they do. I dont think I do. I think the only people who should be allowed to decide are the ones who have to put their money where their mouth is. and one thing you realize when you spend time over there is that none of these issues is anywhere near as simple as it tends to look from this side of the pond.
During the five years I lived in Israel I was well aware of the complexities of the situation (there's always a situation). What is universal when it comes to terrorists is that they want to provoke a response, and it is not necessarily wise to take the bait.
Hamas wants to raise its own profile and popularity among the Palestinians on the West Bank (those in Gaza are increasingly fed up with them but are powerless to oppose them), and prevent the Palestinian Authority from negotiating with Israel. My own view is that Israel's top priority is to negotiate and sign a peace deal with the PA; without a two state solution soon Israel will be replaced by a bi-national state. For that reason I think the Israeli government should focus on and not let itself be diverted from that goal by Hamas' rockets. Israel is also passing up the opportunity to exploit the division within Hamas between those who are willing to agree to a two state solution and those who vehemently oppose it. The only good I can see emerging from the war in Gaza is that it might increase the center-left's votes in the Feb 10 election and prevent Bibi Netanyahu (who opposes a two state solution) from forming the next government. As soon as the IDF withdraws from Gaza Hamas will rebuild the tunnels and start rearming. The PA's new Jordanian trained army will not be strong enough to take Gaza back from Hamas for several more years. 27 years ago Israel should have insisted that Egypt take back Gaza as a condition for signing the peace treaty.
well I'm with you on a good chunk of this. But I dont think hamas has calculated this nearly as thoroughly as you give them credit for. their attitudes and decisions have been very amateurish. they have yet to come to terms with the fact that they are no longer in the opposition and that as actual government officials within the establishment now they dont have the luxury of their previous attitudes and opinions. I that they miscalculated at least as badly as the israelis on this one...I dont think they expected the response they got. also egypt is smarter than you give them credit for. they would have considered forcing them to retain control of gaza to be a dealbreaker. "no way jose, gaza is your problem now" they said. they pretty much immediately renounced all claims on it after the 78 accords were signed.
If left to their own devices and cleverly thwarted from reaching Israeli targets I think hamas would tear itself apart and become a nonentity within a couple of years.
oh by the way that video you posted is making waves. I posted it in a comment on politicsforum in response to a guy suggesting Israelis should put pressure on their government and hold them accountable. a california hippy who watched it said those are the most eloquent protestors he's ever seen, and he's seen quite a lot in his day. furthermore it transpires that the first protestor interviewed, a guy named Jonathan, is a good friend of my friend shari, who was herself at the demonstration in question.
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no subject
Date: 2009-01-09 11:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-11 12:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-11 12:31 am (UTC)BTW, did you say that your shul was in Park Slope?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-11 12:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-11 12:46 am (UTC)I wasn't there, but I was once in a different synagogue in Park Slope.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-12 11:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-13 03:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-13 03:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-14 01:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-14 05:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-14 06:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-10 12:28 am (UTC)I mean these guys definitely have a valid point. there's a shit ton of money being spent fighting with the palestinians that would certain be better spent developing southern towns and the negev region in general.
Still I dont think its right to blame the Israeli government entirely for that because the stinkers in gaza are doing their best to make the status quo untenable for the Israelis. I also dont think its entirely fair to say the majority of Israelis support the actions in gaza. Its more like they grudgingly aquiesce to its necessity. still I would never say things like that to their faces.
I dont agree with those american jews who think they have as much right to say what should happen in Israel as Israelis do. I dont think they do. I dont think I do. I think the only people who should be allowed to decide are the ones who have to put their money where their mouth is. and one thing you realize when you spend time over there is that none of these issues is anywhere near as simple as it tends to look from this side of the pond.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-11 12:01 am (UTC)Hamas wants to raise its own profile and popularity among the Palestinians on the West Bank (those in Gaza are increasingly fed up with them but are powerless to oppose them), and prevent the Palestinian Authority from negotiating with Israel. My own view is that Israel's top priority is to negotiate and sign a peace deal with the PA; without a two state solution soon Israel will be replaced by a bi-national state. For that reason I think the Israeli government should focus on and not let itself be diverted from that goal by Hamas' rockets. Israel is also passing up the opportunity to exploit the division within Hamas between those who are willing to agree to a two state solution and those who vehemently oppose it. The only good I can see emerging from the war in Gaza is that it might increase the center-left's votes in the Feb 10 election and prevent Bibi Netanyahu (who opposes a two state solution) from forming the next government. As soon as the IDF withdraws from Gaza Hamas will rebuild the tunnels and start rearming. The PA's new Jordanian trained army will not be strong enough to take Gaza back from Hamas for several more years. 27 years ago Israel should have insisted that Egypt take back Gaza as a condition for signing the peace treaty.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-11 12:45 am (UTC)If left to their own devices and cleverly thwarted from reaching Israeli targets I think hamas would tear itself apart and become a nonentity within a couple of years.
oh by the way that video you posted is making waves. I posted it in a comment on politicsforum in response to a guy suggesting Israelis should put pressure on their government and hold them accountable. a california hippy who watched it said those are the most eloquent protestors he's ever seen, and he's seen quite a lot in his day. furthermore it transpires that the first protestor interviewed, a guy named Jonathan, is a good friend of my friend